The movie quality issue and future formatting

[Bound2Burst]

A few weeks ago, someone noticed I was posting MP4 clips on Clips4Sale instead of Quicktime and asked me if the quality of the MP4 files was any better than WMV. I replied that it was about the same. Tonight, I have performed a comparison and realized my statement is not true. MP4 files are far better than WMV; in fact, they are virtually the same quality as the original Quicktime version.

But to the main point of this thread: I have also found by experimenting with bitrates that the only way to get a decent quality WMV file is to create it at 1280x720 pixels with a bitrate of around 4000 kbps from a 1920x1080 pixel Quicktime file. This leads to the file size being 40 MB per minute, making a 20-minute video around 800 MB. That's far too big for downloads. Lower bitrates all introduce blockiness when the camera is moving or when the picture fades in or out. I have tried a new video converter which does produce a nice image at the 4000 kbps setting, but when I drop the bitrate down it brings back the blockiness. There would seem to be no solution if file sizes are to be kept manageable.

There is some software called Flip4Mac which can be run in conjunction with Final Cut Pro X to create WMV output direct, but there seem to be mixed opinions about the quality. I hesitate to try it because the license is $180 and if it turns out to be no better, or only slightly better, than all the video converters I have tried, it will be a huge waste of money. Unfortunately, the manufacturer does not allow a trial run to test out the quality. That in itself raises doubt.

I am going through this process (again) because I would really like to switch to publishing WMV files only. The majority of customers still choose to buy these despite the poorer quality. At the moment, publishing each movie in two formats, and in sets as well as individually, means that I am placing 4 copies of each movie on the sever and this is taking up a prodigious amount of disc space. I'm afraid something must be done to streamline things.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Dave.

[Sphincter_movement+]

Hiya Mucker
Sorry Dave but you have lost me with this one buddy, I have not got a clue what you talking about.

All I do know is that my Brownie 127 is still working.

Take care mate.

[cantholdit]

I'm not sure why people are choosing WMV files - perhaps they don't think they'll be able to play the others. I've been using VLC media player for several years and it plays everything you throw at it, including MP4. Why not just recommend customers install VLC (it's free), then try a few MP4's.

[pcwp]

I'll have a look and see how WMV comes out, but I expect that what you are finding is correct, WMV is quite frankly a terrible format.

I don't get why everywhere seems to insist on using it, for me it did set B2B apart from a few of the others. But then again sales are sales. Though you have never not not supported WMV so it's a bit hard to know whether or not if you stopped using WMV that people would stop buying. That is probably a terrible risk to try - though you could release one set in mp4 only for a week and see how many complaints you get / sales then release in WMV a week later to see what happens but probably not wise .

I really can't understand why people buy it, sure it plays easily enough in windows media player but I would have thought that if they managed to buy the clip (after finding it etc) you'd think they would know how to play a mov/mp4. As well as that WMV is just so badly supported, isn't mp4 now also the widely supported mobile format? High quality and plays on everything...nah go with WMV >.<. I think the bottom line is, if you want quality and space, you can't go with WMV. You have to sacrifice on one of them, either drop WMV, use more space or lose quality.

I'd just like to add a couple of suggestions/comments though.

Firstly, I happily paid a premium before for mov/mp4 and would do so again on the b2b store if that helped at all, though I don't know what the sales are like and it's quite possible a change in price will deter people away - though you could argue the ones choosing mp4/mov know they are of better quality from the old days .

Second - if you do decide to drop the higher quality clips, would it be possible to keep releasing compilations in these formats? I don't know how you create them, if you use your raw footage first or create them from existing produced clips. Eitherway ill explain why :-
I will admit I did not purchase JMI 10, sorry. I had already bought all the clips and since I have the software / know how I created the compilation myself (with some missed ones I might add!), back to the point, since its hard to include unreleased content in these nowadays, something like having the added quality for these might give me an added incentive to purchase them even though I already own the individual clips. Just a thought

[Bound2Burst]

Hi pcwp,

Because most people by PCs and these come with WM, I think the majority of users just default to WMV. PC operating systems are not very user friendly when it comes to handling other formats and one has to make an effort, like cantholdit using VLC. I can make a recommendation that customers use this software but I think most will ignore me.

You're certainly correct that WM Player is badly supported. I periodically get emails from people saying they can't play older clips, and it's because the backwards compatibility in their software has been lost. It's a bad policy but that has never stopped Microsoft discarding earlier codecs every year or two. Apple never does that which is why I favour their software.

Business is indeed business and I can't change the world, so I have to come up with a solution. I don't want to churn out lower quality products for everyone, but economically I may have to do it. Now that I have a dedicated server I have a finite amount of disc space and it will soon be exhausted. I can add in a second server, but then the operating cost escalates ($6,000 per year). If this happens, prices will have to go up to compensate, and who's going to like that? The most economic solution is to reduce the rate at which disc space is being consumed and remove one of the formats from earlier releases.

By the way, I never expect people who buy individual clips to also buy compilations. Those are intended for the audience that seldom buys individual clips but will buy these. They bring in extra income from existing material and help to offset movies sets which have not covered the cost of the shoots.

[pcwp]

[Bound2Burst]

I have experimented with WMV bitrates. The norm is 2500kbps, but I have tried 3000 and 4000. At 4000 there is still a little blockiness but it is much reduced. At 3000 it basically looks the same as at 2500, just a bigger file. The problem is that setting the bitrate to 4000 generates a significantly bigger file which would put an end to releasing movie sets - the size of a single zip file containing 3 or 4 movies would be prohibitive for a lot of users and may well create download memory issues.

My last option is to try the direct export from FCPX using the fully-licensed version of Flip4Mac. I just wish I could see an example before committing. Given that sellers of video converters all make the claim that there is no quality loss, there always is, so I can't help but feel F4M will be the same.

[qpeg]

Hi Dave

I've tried to help you out in the past with WMV quality and Flip4Mac was one of my suggestions, because you've tried everything else without success and I know Flip4Mac is what a lot of producers use to make their WMV movies.

I'll try and explain the issue. WMV, MP4, MKV are basically container formats. Video is converted using a codec, which is then placed within the container. Whichever of these container formats you use, all are equally capable of handling video converted using a modern codec.

The problem is that for whatever reason, the WMV converters you've tried aren't using a modern codec. Your Quicktime movies are produced using a H.264 codec, while your WMV videos are using H.263. H.263 is an older and far less effective technology, which will need a far higher bitrate to achieve a specific video quality compared to H.264. Probably about twice the bitrate at least which isn't practical.

I'm fairly sure Flip4Mac would be a solution, since I've seen plenty of WMVs with H.264 that were produced using it. Would be good if you could trial if first though.. have you tried contacting the company about a trial?

[Bound2Burst]

[pcwp]

Are the trailers anything to go by? This is what I get for the truth or dare trailer;

Video
ID : 1
Format : WMV2
Codec ID : WMV2
Codec ID/Info : Windows Media Video 8
Description of the codec : wmv2
Duration : 1mn 14s
Bit rate : 2 436 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Bit depth : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.088
Stream size : 21.7 MiB (91%)

That says its WMV 8 (WMV2), just looking at the flip2mac site (and other wmv I have from other places) the latest is WMV 9 (WMV3)?

[Bound2Burst]

The software I have has both WMV2 and WMV3 options, but for some reason it keeps reverting to WMV2. I have to remember to set it manually each time I use it. Rather annoying.

[Bound2Burst]

That said though, I can't see any difference in quality between WMV2 and WMV3. Does it look any different on a PC?

[qpeg]

[Anon_E._Mus]

For those who exist in the Microsoft Windows/XP or 7 universe, I recommend you download the VLC Media Player from http://www2.downloadster.org/vlc-media-player/ as an alternative to the Windows Media Player. The basic VLC Media Player is free and allows playing of the .mov format clips with no problem. It will also play the .wmv format and several others. A direct comparison of the two formats of Dave's clips using VLC shows clearly the superior quality of the .mov version. If you have limited experience downloading and installing programs for your Windows operating system, the VLC is is a straightforward install, and the code is verified as safe at least by Norton Antivirus.

[lonestarr022]

which is a smaller file in terms of size?

[Bound2Burst]

[pcwp]

Dave, made any progress / decision on the issue yet?

[Bound2Burst]

[Loo-Loo]

Oh dear. .WMV v .MP4

I have a Mac, so I am not really affected as I always try to download the QT version of everything. However, I did try Flip4Mac a couple of years ago but I never got it to work properly, in fact I hardly ever got it to work at all, but that is probably due to my ignorance. Yes I have used VLC for a while and it worked ok, but now I find the Apple supplied QT player will just about play anything, and ones that it gives up on I can usually get to work with something called MPEG Streamclip. This will convert to various file formats, but whether it will do MP4 to WMV I don't know because I have never tried.

[Loo-Loo]

Well I have just tried MPEG Streamclip to convert a short MP4 file to WMV, and it seems to have done it without any problem and I don't notice any obvious drop in quality, but I am not a professional.

Anyway, you could give it a try Dave - if you want:- http://www.squared5.com/

[Bound2Burst]

[Sphincter_movement+]

Good day Mrs North
Thank you for helping you hubby and pulling him out of the mire.
Well appreciated by the forum and myself.

SM

[Loo-Loo]

If you have an Mac running OS10.x cammie then you ought to have no problems with MP4 files. I have lots of saved video in this format. In fact, I bought a 3TB external drive in order to save many of my commercial DVDs onto the drive in MP4 format, just in case the DVD gets corrupted or the drive becomes faulty.

My thinking is also that the latest tablets and smartphones do not have any drives, and a time will come when a DVD drive in a computer goes the way of the floppy disk. I have a few very old DVDs about ten years old that my Macbook will not play even now, so I decided that the time had come to backup as much as possible.